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welcome to tales from the road home and

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your post Big West today's episode is an

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interview with Stian Arneson if the log

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episode in fact it's so long I chopped

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it into two parts with about an hour

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long you're gonna need a little bit of

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background information here Steen used

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to be a 9/11 truther 9/11 truth is a

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movement that holds that the World Trade

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Center was destroyed by controlled

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demolition and not simply the impact

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from the planes they think that there

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were explosive pre planted in the

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buildings there's a couple of things

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that we reference whilst talking that

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you might not be familiar with one of

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which is architects and engineers for

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9/11 truth which is an organization of

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some architects and engineers who

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believe this particular conspiracy

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theory there are very small number out

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of the hundreds of thousands of

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architects and engineers in the country

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or the millions throughout the world but

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there are certainly some people who

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believe it and they are architects and

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engineers another thing that we

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mentioned is the lawyers Committee for

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9/11 truth which is a related

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organization and they have been suing a

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bunch of people recently they've been

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suing the FBI suing the government suing

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a variety of other people the lowest

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committee is basically a subgroup of

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architects and engineers for 9/11 truth

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they're very closely related now one

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thing that comes up is iron microspheres

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iron microspheres is a particular piece

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of evidence that architects and

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engineers for 9/11 truth like to use

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because they think it proves that a

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certain type of explosive or is used

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during the collapse of the World Trade

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Center so here here we go with steer an

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artisan

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[Music]

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Stian you and i met virtually around two

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years ago on Facebook you I think you

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messaged me after seeing me on Joe Rogan

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is that right yes that's right I saw you

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and Joe discussing well several

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conspiracy theories but I guess 9/11 was

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the one that made me get in touch with

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you now at that time you were well and

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perhaps still are very interested in the

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9/11 conspiracy theory how will you

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describe you know where you were at at

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that time when you contacted me what

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were your what were you thinking about

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in terms of 9/11 well at that time I was

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really deeply into the whole aspect of

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the 9/11 truth movement in regards to

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the theory of nano-thermite explosives

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basically the idea of the whole event

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being staged for the purpose of

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exploiting it of course for either

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financial egotistical reasons for big

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corporations or perhaps something else

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than that but I guess it was in the

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comment section of the community where I

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saw you getting in touch with people in

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a different way that I've seen before

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you didn't call people names and you

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didn't approach them in a in a in a

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polite way

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and the response and return from other

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truthers and I guess other members of

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that community was what surprised me to

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say the least

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it was almost like someone reacting to

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having a religious perception threatened

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in a way and I've seen that before from

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both familywize and in other areas and

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they get very defensive about it and it

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gets personal for people but you you

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didn't stop and I guess that's what

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caught my attention

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we gray yeah that's very interest

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I didn't actually realize it was it was

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exactly like that when you started

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talking to me

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a lot of people they just will contact

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me and they'll say things like you know

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what do you think about this piece of

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evidence or you know how can you live

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with yourself being a shield for the

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government which one but yeah I really

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enjoyed our conversations over the last

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like year in a bit nearly two years I

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think because we've kind of covered a

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lot of ground and I got the sense of

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starts that you were you know you you

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gave a lot of credulity to architects

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and engineers for 9/11 truth position

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that it was some kind of controlled

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demolition what what what would you say

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as a relationship with architects and

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engineers and 9/11 truth and your

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perception of them how has that evolved

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over the last couple of years it's um

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it's in a way to fault it well just to

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answer the the the previous comment I

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was one of those people well I did

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how could you do how could you talk

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about in this way and and not talk about

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that and you were very polite oh well

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yes thank you you you were very grounded

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about it in a way you you didn't you

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were really consistent about what was

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your goal in in saying what you said and

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and from what I perceived you your

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intentions are good but it's easy for

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others to to interpret them as you being

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a chill or a shell or anything else in

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regards to the 89 learning community

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it's a two-fold community in my eyes

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there are people who have been living in

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an echo chamber for for quite some time

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where they don't actively expose

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themselves to criticism it's very it

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seems to be mostly based on emails and

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reading forum posts and perhaps watching

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a youtube video where it says debunked

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and I don't think that really connects

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to them I

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I think that they support themselves on

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each other and this has been spiraling

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for for quite a while but then I feel

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that there's a section of of that

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community which is a lot more serious

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and they are open to having discussions

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and debates but I don't know if there's

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anyone who's pushing them to do it if

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there's anyone that is going to welded

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it also seems like there's a stigma

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attached to even talking to you with

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them being part of that community so

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it's almost like you get shamed for

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talking to someone who is challenging

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your opinions just for example today I

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had a chat with one of the guys who I

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don't know if I can tell you off of the

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podcast but one of them one of the

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people who's going to be peer reviewing

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the Alaska report and and he would be

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for example very glad to to talk to you

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and to discuss at least the report when

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it comes out and another aspects of the

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9/11 theories so to speak just to really

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quickly jump in like just clear up for

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people are not familiar with what the

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Alaska report is this is a report that

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is being was a study that was done at

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the University of Alaska Fairbanks by

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dr. Leroy Halsey and a couple of his

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graduate students and it was paid for by

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architects and engineers for 9/11 truth

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and it was a study into the causes of

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the collapse of World Trade Center seven

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yeah yeah I see the community of a 9/11

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as a not a divided group but it's um but

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yes it's it's like an echo chamber

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effect you you just get people who who

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don't expose themselves to - for example

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the IDS that you have presented and some

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of them have but they don't grow on them

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they don't continue to debate or to

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participate in that interaction I don't

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know why yes it is interesting that it's

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very hard to get through to people and

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you see you know I see things that

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you know if I personally were considered

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to have been debunked and yet I see them

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coming up again you're not just on

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Facebook posts but on various fairly

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serious things like the the lawyers

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Committee they've done a number of

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lawsuits recently and I think the one

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they did against the FBI had a quote in

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it saying that the presence of iron

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microspheres can only be explained by by

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thermite essentially automatic reaction

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of some sort and yet like a few months

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before that we were quite a bit more

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before that I can't remember exactly I

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done this whole video and a talk I gave

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on how there's like ten different ways

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you can make iron microspheres and you

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make them from you know and just from

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building construction and the building

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clean up and the fires would make some

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and and there's there's all these

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different types of possible sources of

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them and yet they still have this this

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very very simple and misleading and

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essentially false statement in the

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middle of this this lawsuit and the

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lawsuit itself seem to me that if you

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familiar with if you read it it seems

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like just kind of a you know the same

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old things that have been said for a

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long time it doesn't seem like the

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refining things at all yeah yeah most of

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the ideas are pretty consistent with

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past thoughts and and and theories but

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the the the lecture that you that you've

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done and the videos I'm not sure if

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they've been exposed to them you know if

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your problem yeah well it almost seems

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like a diplomatic you or like you'd need

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a diplomat to to initiate something like

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that because the emotional aspect of

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being wrong and so badly wrong and maybe

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not even wrong I mean just to for

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example you I've watched the the lecture

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that you did on that and as you say

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there's several reasons as to why then

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the microspheres can be there and all of

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these other ways that we've observed

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them being there

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are you know just part of a spectrum of

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reasons and in that spectrum

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nano-thermite

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I guess could be one of them and that it

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doesn't exactly discount it in any way

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it just opens up other possibilities and

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it's important as you say that they

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don't to say something like that like

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that but it's the only reason those

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fears can be there they're basically

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ruining the whole possibility of maybe

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granting a new investigation because I

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do believe that there should be a new

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investigation whether it's into micro

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spheres or explosives or whatever it is

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I think that it there should be a new

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investigation in regards to who was

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actually financing it or making it

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happen what did someone make it easier

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for it to happen and in that case who

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and if those people exist and are still

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alive today then of course they should

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be brought to justice otherwise they

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could play the same cards again another

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time or in a different way that you know

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as a speculation but yes to become fixed

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on that idea that the micro spheres are

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just that and they're for that reason I

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I think is a mistake yes yeah something

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I always say when talking about why I

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debunk a conspiracy theories is that you

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know the more extreme conspiracy

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theories that people believe in prevent

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them from looking at things that are

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less extreme and eventually you're gonna

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get down to things which are actual real

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conspiracies but if they're way off like

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you know talking about holographic

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planes flying into the towers or or

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chemtrails or you know flat earth or

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something like that you'd really don't

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have any hope of getting them to look at

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the real conspiracies you know wherever

274
00:12:39,369 --> 00:12:37,279
that lays on the conspiracy spectrum I

275
00:12:41,409 --> 00:12:39,379
mean maybe it's a bit further along and

276
00:12:46,359 --> 00:12:41,419
I think maybe it's a bit further down

277
00:12:49,329 --> 00:12:46,369
than you think but but yeah it's it's a

278
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:49,339
distraction and I think pushing

279
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,970
everybody to a more reasonable state

280
00:12:58,540 --> 00:12:54,560
it's good for everybody regardless

281
00:13:00,700 --> 00:12:58,550
of your position mmm if I can get if I

282
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:00,710
can ask you you you've said something in

283
00:13:07,810 --> 00:13:05,990
that lecture that that I I'm not sure

284
00:13:10,269 --> 00:13:07,820
what you actually meant but you said

285
00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:10,279
that you didn't want future generations

286
00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:17,150
to believe in conspiracy theories do you

287
00:13:22,030 --> 00:13:19,630
mean that in what way do you mean that

288
00:13:24,940 --> 00:13:22,040
actually I was kind of in a way

289
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:24,950
referring to something you told me at

290
00:13:28,450 --> 00:13:27,050
that point in the lecture I was

291
00:13:31,540 --> 00:13:28,460
referring to a story that I remember you

292
00:13:34,930 --> 00:13:31,550
telling me how you heard of two military

293
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:34,940
people from your army you're doing a

294
00:13:38,950 --> 00:13:36,650
national service coming back from

295
00:13:41,530 --> 00:13:38,960
wherever they were stationed and telling

296
00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:41,540
you about how they believed in this

297
00:13:45,610 --> 00:13:43,700
evidence for the thermite in the World

298
00:13:47,079 --> 00:13:45,620
Trade Center the World Trade Center

299
00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:47,089
attacks and that's something that's

300
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:48,860
always stuck with me ever since you told

301
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:49,910
me that I think it was when we were

302
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:52,160
actually voice chatting at one time yeah

303
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:56,450
and I combined that with an anecdote

304
00:14:00,970 --> 00:13:58,310
about how I had been listening to a

305
00:14:03,250 --> 00:14:00,980
podcast which was a couple of kids

306
00:14:05,250 --> 00:14:03,260
basically they were like 15 or 16 years

307
00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:05,260
old and they were talking about

308
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:08,270
conspiracy theories and so when I said I

309
00:14:12,130 --> 00:14:10,610
don't want the next generation believing

310
00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:12,140
in conspiracy theories I said I don't

311
00:14:16,329 --> 00:14:14,150
want former soldiers believe in

312
00:14:17,980 --> 00:14:16,339
conspiracy theories I don't want the

313
00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:17,990
next generation believing in conspiracy

314
00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:20,060
theories what's very favorite referring

315
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:22,120
to there was first of all I didn't want

316
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:24,910
disaffected soldiers blowing things up

317
00:14:29,290 --> 00:14:27,110
because they had some mistaken belief

318
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:29,300
about a conspiracy theory like Timothy

319
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,440
McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma Building I

320
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:35,600
think he he had some military experience

321
00:14:40,930 --> 00:14:38,240
and you know he he got into conspiracy

322
00:14:42,130 --> 00:14:40,940
theories and I think it's dangerous if

323
00:14:43,420 --> 00:14:42,140
you're in a situation where you have

324
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:43,430
lots of people with military experience

325
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:45,920
who have nothing else to do and they

326
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:47,600
start getting into conspiracy theories

327
00:14:53,079 --> 00:14:50,450
and the next generation quote was really

328
00:14:54,430 --> 00:14:53,089
just talking about young people young

329
00:14:56,620 --> 00:14:54,440
people you know being the next

330
00:14:58,560 --> 00:14:56,630
generation if they're getting into these

331
00:15:01,990 --> 00:14:58,570
conspiracy theories it's at a young age

332
00:15:03,490 --> 00:15:02,000
then they're gonna grow up believing in

333
00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:03,500
conspiracy theories and we're gonna get

334
00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:05,480
this this you know my false conspiracy

335
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:07,190
theories and this extreme conspiracy

336
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:08,240
theories and will

337
00:15:13,449 --> 00:15:11,120
get this kind of corrupted corrupting

338
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:13,459
influence in society where more and more

339
00:15:19,139 --> 00:15:15,890
people start taking these conspiracy

340
00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:19,149
theories seriously so I wasn't saying

341
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:21,620
yeah everybody who's born from this

342
00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:22,970
point on should not believe in

343
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:26,060
conspiracy theories I I I promote like a

344
00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:28,370
healthy skepticism of the government and

345
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:30,649
that includes two degrees suspecting

346
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,490
conspiracies in them burns I I think

347
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:36,800
that the young people is something that

348
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:39,050
we want to focus on because they are at

349
00:15:46,810 --> 00:15:43,600
risk and they are there's a lot of them

350
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,820
that's what I meant by that okay okay

351
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:48,800
yeah that sounds a little bit better I

352
00:15:54,370 --> 00:15:50,770
was like thinking what you were

353
00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:54,380
referring to you there today yeah how

354
00:16:01,510 --> 00:15:57,970
did you personally start getting into

355
00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:01,520
conspiracy theories in general and then

356
00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:05,870
specifically 9/11 oh yeah actually did

357
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:08,630
begin just like you just like you said

358
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:11,330
it started off as really young I must

359
00:16:19,740 --> 00:16:16,630
have been six or seven years old and I

360
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:19,750
remember my dad he was really involved

361
00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:24,770
in research as it just as a hobby in the

362
00:16:31,569 --> 00:16:29,540
famous has stunned phenomenon as there's

363
00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:31,579
a valley in Norway where there's a mic

364
00:16:37,540 --> 00:16:35,480
phenomenon and it's been going on for

365
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:37,550
quite a few years now and he was deep

366
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:39,680
into this and it's a real phenomenon of

367
00:16:43,810 --> 00:16:41,690
course and they they have a research

368
00:16:47,079 --> 00:16:43,820
station up there now that state financed

369
00:16:49,540 --> 00:16:47,089
surveillance inga whole valley 24/7 and

370
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:49,550
the university has been connected to it

371
00:16:57,579 --> 00:16:54,399
now so you can study physics and get

372
00:16:59,319 --> 00:16:57,589
what's called in English well you

373
00:17:02,079 --> 00:16:59,329
basically spend a few weeks out in the

374
00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:02,089
field trying to catch a glimpse and

375
00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:03,649
document this phenomenon and it's been

376
00:17:10,689 --> 00:17:06,860
quite successful but from from his

377
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:10,699
interest into that he there's a there's

378
00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:12,890
of course an interest then in UFOs so I

379
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:15,920
picked up a book about UFOs when I was

380
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:19,520
six to six or seven and from there it

381
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:21,750
just spiraled on

382
00:17:27,270 --> 00:17:25,600
remember the movie ET and Independence

383
00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:27,280
Day and there was just something about

384
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:30,900
that mystery of something out there that

385
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:37,090
just traps my my interest in it for a

386
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:39,370
long time seeing a strange light

387
00:17:46,919 --> 00:17:42,000
phenomenon that for 14 years old data

388
00:17:49,230 --> 00:17:46,929
just kicked it really yeah it really

389
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:49,240
grew at that point seeing something

390
00:17:59,810 --> 00:17:54,640
myself and from there just I think it

391
00:18:02,940 --> 00:17:59,820
was loose change that started that whole

392
00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:02,950
way of thinking and the way that loose

393
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:08,620
change was put together was really a in

394
00:18:16,169 --> 00:18:11,770
a way a masterpiece it's so well put

395
00:18:22,860 --> 00:18:16,179
together for a mind that's vulnerable

396
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:22,870
and open and if you're into music and

397
00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:27,130
strong you know visual demonstrations of

398
00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:31,990
what's going on and yeah that whoever

399
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:33,580
made that cut one of the names that who

400
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:35,700
made it but they did a really good job

401
00:18:43,380 --> 00:18:39,850
regardless of how factually based it was

402
00:18:48,919 --> 00:18:43,390
or you know how good the arguments were

403
00:18:52,919 --> 00:18:48,929
but it sold the case very early on and

404
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:52,929
at that point I think right after that

405
00:18:59,400 --> 00:18:54,640
must have been when architects and

406
00:19:01,919 --> 00:18:59,410
engineers were were formed and been

407
00:19:04,430 --> 00:19:01,929
paying attention to it ever since but it

408
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:04,440
started with UFOs actually so it's

409
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,610
tipped over to something else

410
00:19:12,510 --> 00:19:08,320
yeah well I think my my personal

411
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:12,520
interest also started with UFOs I was

412
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,010
very interested in things like that when

413
00:19:19,530 --> 00:19:17,679
I was young I would subscribe to a

414
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:19,540
magazine in Britain called the

415
00:19:25,470 --> 00:19:23,890
unexplained and then later 14 times so I

416
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:25,480
was always very interested in that type

417
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:29,110
of phenomena but more later it was an

418
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:31,870
interest in kind of explaining what you

419
00:19:35,910 --> 00:19:33,610
were seeing in this guy you know I still

420
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:35,920
don't discount the possibility of the

421
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:38,050
alien spaceships but I haven't really

422
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:40,000
seen any particularly good evidence that

423
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:42,990
they're anything other than a variety of

424
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:45,490
conventional explanations are you still

425
00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:48,880
interested in in UFOs well since I've

426
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:51,460
got you here I'll show you a book that

427
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:54,400
I'm reading at the moment you might have

428
00:20:02,070 --> 00:19:57,010
read it not sure if you can read that is

429
00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:02,080
it in Paraguay Nick I said yeah I've

430
00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:06,070
heard of it it's really good it's quite

431
00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:09,040
a read and having him being the chief

432
00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:11,920
scientist from that having him being a

433
00:20:17,610 --> 00:20:14,020
skeptic original well he's he was still

434
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:17,620
being a skeptic but a denier in a way he

435
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:19,450
was just taking his own you know it's

436
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:21,970
nothing here and after that admitted

437
00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:23,650
that the whole Project Blue Book was

438
00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:25,630
basically a project to calm down the

439
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:28,030
masses since they had no idea what was

440
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:29,770
actually going on in people humming

441
00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:33,610
hysterical the connection between UFOs

442
00:20:38,850 --> 00:20:36,100
and conspiracy theories because UFOs

443
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:38,860
essentially is a conspiracy theory in a

444
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:40,570
way and that it requires the government

445
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:43,450
to be covering up the presence of aliens

446
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:45,250
and of course there's various levels of

447
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:47,530
it you know it could just be a simple

448
00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:49,120
you know we don't know what these things

449
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:51,640
are so let's not talk about them or

450
00:20:55,290 --> 00:20:53,290
there could be a more involved thing

451
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:55,300
where they have contact with the greys

452
00:20:59,910 --> 00:20:57,850
and there's underground bases or even

453
00:21:02,400 --> 00:20:59,920
like in France dimensional wormholes and

454
00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:02,410
things like that so people do believe in

455
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:04,990
these things I think some people

456
00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:07,090
question whether you know what should

457
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:08,740
you have UFOs on your chart of

458
00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:11,050
conspiracies but I think because it

459
00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:13,900
necessitates a conspiracy you know it's

460
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:15,820
it's a conspiracy theory to a certain

461
00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:18,370
the cover-up aspect of it is a

462
00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:22,540
conspiracy theory yes yeah but but that

463
00:21:26,790 --> 00:21:24,780
the first aspect that you mentioned that

464
00:21:28,350 --> 00:21:26,800
this is something that we don't know

465
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:28,360
what is and we have no idea what's going

466
00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:31,450
on I think is more likely one that you

467
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:33,400
know that that'd be more understandable

468
00:21:38,820 --> 00:21:36,490
if you're basically the representatives

469
00:21:41,070 --> 00:21:38,830
of whatever power there is in a society

470
00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:41,080
and you can do nothing about what's

471
00:21:46,170 --> 00:21:42,430
going on then

472
00:21:49,149 --> 00:21:46,180
I think you'd rather cover it up and not

473
00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:49,159
talk about it maybe and knowledge

474
00:21:55,869 --> 00:21:52,340
there's something going on but I see any

475
00:22:00,099 --> 00:21:55,879
any parallels amongst people you've

476
00:22:02,379 --> 00:22:00,109
talked to in terms of like UFOs and 9/11

477
00:22:07,859 --> 00:22:02,389
do you see some crossover between the

478
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:07,869
communities at all mm-hmm in behavior

479
00:22:17,919 --> 00:22:13,609
definitely the well not just behavior

480
00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:17,929
but I guess topics it's sort of a soup

481
00:22:24,999 --> 00:22:22,460
of people that they swim in like a glass

482
00:22:29,169 --> 00:22:25,009
of conspiracy theories and and they and

483
00:22:31,299 --> 00:22:29,179
they touch them all and then you find

484
00:22:35,049 --> 00:22:31,309
people that are of course dedicated to

485
00:22:37,479 --> 00:22:35,059
one certain theory or or it could be a

486
00:22:39,969 --> 00:22:37,489
factual conspiracy it could be you know

487
00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:39,979
WikiLeaks or it could be it could be

488
00:22:45,099 --> 00:22:42,049
something else but my feeling is that

489
00:22:47,409 --> 00:22:45,109
this is a group of people that move from

490
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:47,419
subject to subject sometimes it's UFOs

491
00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:51,369
sometimes it's 911 and then it's over to

492
00:22:58,060 --> 00:22:55,340
you know moon bases or stuff like that

493
00:23:00,279 --> 00:22:58,070
but it's the behavior of these people I

494
00:23:03,339 --> 00:23:00,289
was I was studying the crop circle

495
00:23:05,739 --> 00:23:03,349
phenomenon in in the UK for for quite a

496
00:23:08,649 --> 00:23:05,749
few years a couple of years ago ending

497
00:23:14,259 --> 00:23:08,659
up making my own crop circle ending that

498
00:23:18,219 --> 00:23:14,269
story did you do in the middle of the

499
00:23:25,629 --> 00:23:18,229
night or was it yes using night-vision

500
00:23:32,019 --> 00:23:25,639
optics and directly test to see if it's

501
00:23:33,639 --> 00:23:32,029
plausible personally yes well I'm of

502
00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:33,649
course I'm open to the possibility of

503
00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:36,759
there being a a phenomenon previously

504
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:40,070
that could have been separate I'm open

505
00:23:44,589 --> 00:23:42,080
to that because in this crop circle

506
00:23:47,019 --> 00:23:44,599
community you have yeah it's different

507
00:23:48,879 --> 00:23:47,029
groups of artists maybe five or six

508
00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:48,889
different groups one might be from

509
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:51,080
London another one from Liverpool and

510
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:53,570
they all gather during the summer in in

511
00:23:59,109 --> 00:23:56,450
Wiltshire and they almost some of them

512
00:24:01,299 --> 00:23:59,119
are in contact with each other and they

513
00:24:03,070 --> 00:24:01,309
sort of compete and they're sitting

514
00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:03,080
around just like

515
00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:06,560
almost stereotypical and you know near

516
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:09,800
pubs and having a fire and smoke some

517
00:24:14,260 --> 00:24:11,930
weed me and they have a lot of fun and

518
00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:14,270
then they watch these people go bananas

519
00:24:18,370 --> 00:24:15,830
when they go into crop circles

520
00:24:21,610 --> 00:24:18,380
afterwards and they see helicopters and

521
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:21,620
they camera crews and they do really get

522
00:24:24,790 --> 00:24:24,290
a laugh out of it and and a lot of fun

523
00:24:27,610 --> 00:24:24,800
too

524
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:27,620
but they they do acknowledge that there

525
00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:32,150
are crop circles where nobody knows who

526
00:24:36,670 --> 00:24:34,880
may made it every season actually that

527
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:36,680
there are crop circles that are really

528
00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:39,290
really good and nobody has any idea who

529
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:42,500
made it mm-hm and these groups have been

530
00:24:47,230 --> 00:24:44,690
in contact with each other saying do you

531
00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:47,240
guys make this as beautiful but nobody

532
00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:50,660
knows who made it base but the 20 year

533
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:53,750
70s and 80s there was quite a lot of

534
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:55,850
crop circles that nobody has any clue

535
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,130
who made which which is interesting but

536
00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:00,320
it doesn't really get you anywhere but

537
00:25:07,270 --> 00:25:03,790
the there's been witness reports of

538
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:07,280
these people when they've gone out

539
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:09,890
making the crop circles seeing strange

540
00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:12,080
phenomenon themselves like balls of

541
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:14,620
light and these types of things nothing

542
00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:18,050
no grey aliens running around yeah I

543
00:25:20,860 --> 00:25:19,550
think with the crop circles it's

544
00:25:23,670 --> 00:25:20,870
obviously quite possible it's just

545
00:25:28,450 --> 00:25:23,680
someone who prefers to remain anonymous

546
00:25:30,550 --> 00:25:28,460
and they enjoy the notoriety of being

547
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:30,560
you know the dark crop circle maker of

548
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:34,010
areas there the phantom phantom what are

549
00:25:39,070 --> 00:25:36,770
they called ciri ologists well probably

550
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:39,080
I think I think it is ciri ologist

551
00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:40,640
people who study crop circles that might

552
00:25:45,250 --> 00:25:41,900
be it is kind of a jokey thing I

553
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,260
actually have had crop circles in my

554
00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:46,880
field out back here

555
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:49,400
I've got like like a small field behind

556
00:25:55,090 --> 00:25:52,190
the house and when the grass gets long

557
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:55,100
enough the deer come along and they kind

558
00:26:00,670 --> 00:25:57,440
of walk around in circles in it and

559
00:26:03,790 --> 00:26:00,680
they're not very good crop circles well

560
00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:03,800
I can I can see how something like that

561
00:26:07,390 --> 00:26:05,270
could get started because when I'm

562
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:07,400
walking through my field and I see this

563
00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:09,650
kind of area that's kind of got the

564
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:11,750
grass kind of swirled around in a

565
00:26:15,910 --> 00:26:13,370
direction it's not perfectly circular or

566
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:15,920
anything but it seems like you know it

567
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:16,850
could occasionally

568
00:26:21,310 --> 00:26:19,090
go into a perfect circle and if the

569
00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:21,320
crops were just a bit different you

570
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:23,870
could you can imagine a natural real

571
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:26,210
simple crop circle like that happy thing

572
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:29,630
and then the guy goes to the pub and

573
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:31,130
tells his mates and they have a few

574
00:26:33,850 --> 00:26:32,510
drinks and then they're going to look at

575
00:26:36,250 --> 00:26:33,860
this and then they're like wow this

576
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:36,260
amazing thing it must be a UFO and it

577
00:26:40,540 --> 00:26:38,210
just grows from there obviously and then

578
00:26:45,270 --> 00:26:40,550
it people start making them and it gets

579
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:45,280
even more yeah definitely but there are

580
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:47,690
really interesting exceptions though

581
00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:51,530
back to what was in the 1940s and 50s

582
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:55,900
where these circles have appeared and

583
00:27:01,060 --> 00:26:58,850
but they were really simple in design

584
00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:01,070
they weren't that complaint complex as

585
00:27:08,350 --> 00:27:06,590
they are today and but the what has

586
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:08,360
happened in the crop circle community is

587
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:09,740
very much alike

588
00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:12,290
what has happened in the 911 committee

589
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:15,350
as well in a in a social way because

590
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:17,450
what happened is that the believers

591
00:27:22,690 --> 00:27:19,250
basically travelling from all over the

592
00:27:26,350 --> 00:27:22,700
world to walk in this phenomenon and and

593
00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:26,360
to feel the energies so to speak

594
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:29,420
they hate the people that claim that

595
00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:31,850
this is this is actually man-made and

596
00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:34,460
then you have an interesting group of

597
00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:39,580
people that those travel to the UK and

598
00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:42,380
you know or in this into the spiritual

599
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:44,780
aspect of it when when you bring up the

600
00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:46,730
fact and you know it may be evidence

601
00:27:53,290 --> 00:27:50,180
that these are man-made they'll say that

602
00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:53,300
well maybe they are man-made but maybe

603
00:27:59,050 --> 00:27:55,670
it's God working through them or maybe

604
00:28:03,940 --> 00:27:59,060
it's so they always find a new way to

605
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:03,950
use it to feel good about themselves I'd

606
00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:06,830
say I find the same behavior in in both

607
00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:09,020
groups but of course there it's

608
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:11,150
completely different subjects and there

609
00:28:16,330 --> 00:28:13,370
are completely different questions to

610
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:16,340
ask in in regards to the events of 9/11

611
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:19,910
and crop circles but the social behavior

612
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:22,160
seems to be the same and what has

613
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:26,090
happened is that the intensity from the

614
00:28:30,430 --> 00:28:28,640
believers has has grown so strong over

615
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:30,440
the years that a lot of these circle

616
00:28:32,620 --> 00:28:30,770
make

617
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:32,630
have quit because they've been harassed

618
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:36,110
and threatened and there's been some

619
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:39,260
lawsuits going around I know that three

620
00:28:45,250 --> 00:28:42,290
other ones that I knew had quit and are

621
00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:45,260
doing ass and circle since that one of

622
00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:48,560
them is quite famous now his his name is

623
00:28:54,820 --> 00:28:50,680
Julian but I can't remember his surname

624
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:54,830
but he's due he did a lot of the the

625
00:28:59,800 --> 00:28:57,200
most advanced circles and when he quit

626
00:29:02,410 --> 00:28:59,810
the the really good ones disappeared and

627
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:02,420
they showed up on the beaches of Dorset

628
00:29:11,050 --> 00:29:09,170
instead so fatty I remember people would

629
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:11,060
go to these crop circles and they would

630
00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:14,330
try to get evidence which kind of

631
00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:16,700
reminds me of people you know going to

632
00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:20,120
911 dust and trying to get evidence from

633
00:29:26,380 --> 00:29:22,220
that and I remember they actually found

634
00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:26,390
iron microspheres in crop circles mm-hmm

635
00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:29,000
which I believe the the source of them

636
00:29:33,670 --> 00:29:31,820
was probably micro meteorites because

637
00:29:36,670 --> 00:29:33,680
there's actually quite a constant

638
00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:36,680
dusting of micro meteorites that falls

639
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:38,030
on the earth like you know pretty much

640
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:40,970
constantly if you go if you take a

641
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:42,970
magnet and you just go through some dirt

642
00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:45,440
you will find them it's actually best if

643
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:47,030
you do it like on a rooftop or something

644
00:29:52,330 --> 00:29:49,070
like that but you can find them in dirt

645
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:52,340
and so they they found iron microspheres

646
00:29:58,300 --> 00:29:55,730
and then they said design microspheres

647
00:30:01,330 --> 00:29:58,310
can only have come from some kind of you

648
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:01,340
know advanced propulsion engine then all

649
00:30:08,170 --> 00:30:03,470
these iron microspheres are proof of

650
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:08,180
crop circles yeah which you know silly

651
00:30:12,430 --> 00:30:10,490
and people might say I'm just bringing

652
00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:12,440
in that example to belittle the iron

653
00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:14,390
microspheres but it really it is not say

654
00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:17,870
I'm saying if you look in places you

655
00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:19,550
look anywhere on the on the world you're

656
00:30:22,450 --> 00:30:21,140
gonna find IMAX microscopy discuss

657
00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:22,460
they're basically falling out of the sky

658
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:25,160
and every construction project will make

659
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:26,720
billions of them so that they're all

660
00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:29,450
over the place you know the brakes on

661
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:31,790
your car you off a few if you brake too

662
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:34,370
hard and you know that they just they're

663
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:36,530
just like they're everywhere that's a

664
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:37,520
good stinger

665
00:30:43,270 --> 00:30:41,330
people are searching for evidence so

666
00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:43,280
they will find evidence like with the

667
00:30:48,190 --> 00:30:44,630
crop circles they

668
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:48,200
the stalks of the the wheat or whatever

669
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:50,870
is supposedly bent in a certain way and

670
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:53,210
that reminds me of on 9/11 you have

671
00:30:58,810 --> 00:30:55,279
these columns that are cut off at a

672
00:31:00,340 --> 00:30:58,820
certain angle and even though there's a

673
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:00,350
perfectly reasonable explanation for

674
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:03,110
both things you know the the stalks were

675
00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:04,580
bent because the guys were pushing them

676
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:06,529
over with a board or whatever they use

677
00:31:10,509 --> 00:31:08,960
and the columns were cut during cleanup

678
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:10,519
and they've cut the main angle so they

679
00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:12,710
would fall in one direction and not the

680
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:15,860
other we will still cling on to these

681
00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:17,450
things like I'm sure if you look in the

682
00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:19,070
crop circle community now you will find

683
00:31:25,570 --> 00:31:21,830
a lot of people still using this the

684
00:31:28,289 --> 00:31:25,580
angle of the week's as as evidence and

685
00:31:32,350 --> 00:31:28,299
you say oh yes you see people using the

686
00:31:34,289 --> 00:31:32,360
these angle cut columns as evidence yeah

687
00:31:36,669 --> 00:31:34,299
you know there's that one in particular

688
00:31:39,639 --> 00:31:36,679
where I tracked down the photograph of

689
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:39,649
it's still standing and uncurse from

690
00:31:45,549 --> 00:31:43,129
like six weeks after and they still use

691
00:31:47,769 --> 00:31:45,559
the same debunked stuff like we were

692
00:31:50,169 --> 00:31:47,779
talking about earlier it's very I have a

693
00:31:51,610 --> 00:31:50,179
frustrating but it's very you know what

694
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:51,620
do you do how do you get through to

695
00:31:56,860 --> 00:31:54,320
these people but so far my experience is

696
00:32:02,680 --> 00:31:56,870
that the only reasonable way to do it is

697
00:32:05,230 --> 00:32:02,690
is through diplomacy in a understandable

698
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:05,240
and it's hard to be too nice to them as

699
00:32:11,409 --> 00:32:07,039
well because you if you get too nice

700
00:32:13,749 --> 00:32:11,419
with them you you lose them they they go

701
00:32:15,549 --> 00:32:13,759
straight back to believing whatever they

702
00:32:18,159 --> 00:32:15,559
want to believe which is of course their

703
00:32:20,139 --> 00:32:18,169
right to do and and and mine in yours as

704
00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:20,149
well but it's like a fine balance you

705
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:22,129
need to be a little bit he'd be a little

706
00:32:27,389 --> 00:32:23,600
bit rough and you need to be a little

707
00:32:30,730 --> 00:32:27,399
bit nice and you need to find a really

708
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:30,740
social balance to to break through that

709
00:32:36,430 --> 00:32:33,919
these people but in regards to Deeb in

710
00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:36,440
regards to the crop circles well that

711
00:32:44,889 --> 00:32:38,860
when the crop circle phenomenon died out

712
00:32:47,619 --> 00:32:44,899
which it did quite a bit in in 20 2012

713
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,629
or 11 that's when it died quite a bit

714
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:49,519
off when these most of these artists

715
00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:52,250
quit you saw people remove themselves

716
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:55,129
from from the crop circle phenomenon and

717
00:33:01,600 --> 00:32:58,010
they switched over to

718
00:33:02,049 --> 00:33:01,610
what's it called ley lines and these so

719
00:33:07,090 --> 00:33:02,059
called

720
00:33:10,419 --> 00:33:07,100
the energy blood veins kannada so these

721
00:33:13,330 --> 00:33:10,429
areas where people used to be which I

722
00:33:14,830 --> 00:33:13,340
love that the fact they did this and I

723
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:14,840
joined them for quite a few nights just

724
00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:17,690
sky watching you had car parks around

725
00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:20,360
wheelchair just packed with people with

726
00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:22,190
binoculars and night vision and they

727
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:23,990
wanted to see UFOs making crop circles

728
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:28,399
and you had campfires and you had a you

729
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:31,370
had in a way a community that was very

730
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:34,370
nice very well-meaning they didn't do

731
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:37,250
any harm to any people at all when they

732
00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:40,399
lost that they just moved - thru the

733
00:33:47,889 --> 00:33:44,000
leylines community or the so this

734
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:47,899
shamanic culture that's over in the UK

735
00:33:55,690 --> 00:33:51,500
so they just spread off and it seems to

736
00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:55,700
be to me a need to believe in something

737
00:34:00,460 --> 00:33:57,710
bigger than yourself I have a feeling

738
00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:00,470
that some people do actually go crazy if

739
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:04,700
they don't have a mental support that

740
00:34:10,180 --> 00:34:07,130
can carry them through through life

741
00:34:11,740 --> 00:34:10,190
because life can be rough really rough

742
00:34:13,899 --> 00:34:11,750
for a lot of people I mean for most

743
00:34:17,319 --> 00:34:13,909
people it's it's just about bringing

744
00:34:20,139 --> 00:34:17,329
food on your table and having enough for

745
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:20,149
your kids to to manage and in that

746
00:34:27,309 --> 00:34:23,839
roughness I think a religious aspect in

747
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:27,319
any in any direction will will help you

748
00:34:32,409 --> 00:34:29,839
accomplish that in a way that makes you

749
00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:32,419
feel good about yourself and if that is

750
00:34:38,399 --> 00:34:35,569
believing in crop circles or thinking

751
00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:38,409
those bases on the moon then I

752
00:34:43,149 --> 00:34:40,700
completely understand it it's it's a

753
00:34:45,819 --> 00:34:43,159
part of human human culture and human

754
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:45,829
nature for a long time and it probably

755
00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:47,710
gonna continue for a long time but I

756
00:34:54,369 --> 00:34:51,950
guess you yo more into what what happens

757
00:34:57,790 --> 00:34:54,379
when it becomes damaging and when is

758
00:35:00,940 --> 00:34:57,800
that point when when is it that it

759
00:35:03,309 --> 00:35:00,950
becomes a threat you would like these

760
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:03,319
soldiers that come home and and really

761
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:05,510
believe and this and that I mean this I

762
00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:09,530
have I mean there's quite a bit of other

763
00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:11,240
soldiers that come back home and that

764
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,720
they're not

765
00:35:16,810 --> 00:35:14,240
is that the government for conspiracies

766
00:35:21,730 --> 00:35:16,820
necessarily but for sending them off to

767
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:21,740
a war that's [\h__\h] to put it in that

768
00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:25,609
way and and they so I don't I don't find

769
00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:27,820
that conspiracy theories would be the

770
00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:30,500
the threatening aspect of this I think

771
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:32,420
that the the government's making

772
00:35:37,870 --> 00:35:35,560
decisions that traumatize people and

773
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:37,880
where they discover that they've been

774
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:42,400
lied to is a lot more dangerous than

775
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:44,990
believing that someone else did 9/11 for

776
00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:47,030
example yeah I think perhaps the

777
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,920
conspiracy theories there might be more

778
00:35:53,830 --> 00:35:51,440
of a issue on the individual basis that

779
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:53,840
rather than a general societal this

780
00:36:00,250 --> 00:35:57,200
phattest dissatisfaction in America we

781
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:00,260
have former military and former law

782
00:36:10,990 --> 00:36:03,280
enforcement like police quite a chunk of

783
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:11,000
them kind of joined biker gangs a lot of

784
00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:13,760
the people who are in bikers are usually

785
00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:16,550
older guys who used to be in the

786
00:36:21,099 --> 00:36:18,560
military or at they sometimes were in

787
00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:21,109
the police and they're just basically

788
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:23,599
essentially rebelling against society

789
00:36:26,349 --> 00:36:24,890
there's all kinds of different biker

790
00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:26,359
gangs I don't want to like cast all

791
00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:28,760
bikers in the same same light but

792
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:31,910
there's there are these bikers and

793
00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:36,470
militias in the United States which you

794
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:39,140
know I think forming part you know lots

795
00:36:42,220 --> 00:36:40,880
of different reasons obviously but

796
00:36:45,550 --> 00:36:42,230
because of that where you talked about

797
00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:45,560
there the dissatisfaction with you know

798
00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:46,940
the government sending them off to war

799
00:36:51,370 --> 00:36:49,460
like an unjust war they weren't linked

800
00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:51,380
not to the country they realized was

801
00:36:54,490 --> 00:36:52,550
unjust perhaps and realized before

802
00:36:55,810 --> 00:36:54,500
and/or maybe they realized when they got

803
00:36:59,020 --> 00:36:55,820
back but you know they realized at some

804
00:37:00,910 --> 00:36:59,030
point that you know they have been used

805
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:00,920
and perhaps they they were forced to

806
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:03,290
kill people over there and then they

807
00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:04,910
came back and they have so fit in with

808
00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:08,060
with Society and you know I think

809
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:09,790
perhaps you're right it might not be the

810
00:37:16,359 --> 00:37:12,530
the conspiracy theory might not be the

811
00:37:20,589 --> 00:37:16,369
the general threat that certainly it

812
00:37:22,030 --> 00:37:20,599
does raise its head I just want to touch

813
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:22,040
on something you mentioned earlier you

814
00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:24,770
talked about you know these people in

815
00:37:28,269 --> 00:37:25,609
UFO

816
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:28,279
watching parties having a great time and

817
00:37:32,229 --> 00:37:30,650
then moving over to the ley lines and I

818
00:37:35,220 --> 00:37:32,239
imagine you have some gatherings that

819
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:35,230
they do at Glastonbury Tor or wherever

820
00:37:40,479 --> 00:37:37,130
yes that's the place

821
00:37:42,549 --> 00:37:40,489
yeah and they I think you know you say

822
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:42,559
like having a belief in something gives

823
00:37:47,289 --> 00:37:44,960
you this new a sense of order in the

824
00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:47,299
universe but I think the central aspect

825
00:37:55,089 --> 00:37:52,190
is a major factor you get this this this

826
00:37:58,269 --> 00:37:55,099
social life from having this shared

827
00:38:01,239 --> 00:37:58,279
passion mmm and I think this is

828
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:01,249
something that I see you know not just

829
00:38:05,499 --> 00:38:03,950
in UFO culture you know they all like

830
00:38:08,499 --> 00:38:05,509
talking about UFOs the other UFO

831
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:08,509
conferences but in 9/11 you get these

832
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:11,089
local 9/11 groups and local chemtrail

833
00:38:17,829 --> 00:38:13,249
groups and you get these groups of

834
00:38:20,410 --> 00:38:17,839
people and they they form a family in a

835
00:38:23,249 --> 00:38:20,420
way and they get together and they have

836
00:38:26,620 --> 00:38:23,259
fun and they help each other and I think

837
00:38:30,569 --> 00:38:26,630
you know and you should tell me what you

838
00:38:34,539 --> 00:38:30,579
think here that being part of a family

839
00:38:37,390 --> 00:38:34,549
prevents you from getting out like yeah

840
00:38:39,309 --> 00:38:37,400
if you start thinking you know negative

841
00:38:40,509 --> 00:38:39,319
thoughts about a theory like maybe you

842
00:38:43,359 --> 00:38:40,519
know 11 wasn't the controlled demolition

843
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:43,369
or maybe these UFOs are just you know

844
00:38:47,859 --> 00:38:44,660
maybe the crop circles are just guys

845
00:38:49,749 --> 00:38:47,869
with boys then the the idea that you're

846
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:49,759
going to lose your family yeah you're

847
00:38:56,079 --> 00:38:53,049
you and your new family might might

848
00:39:00,039 --> 00:38:56,089
dissuade you from even investigating

849
00:39:03,759 --> 00:39:00,049
that yes I kinda thought about how I've

850
00:39:07,329 --> 00:39:03,769
experienced that several times the first

851
00:39:09,489 --> 00:39:07,339
time was if you if you know about a

852
00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:09,499
group called C SETI and disclosure

853
00:39:16,569 --> 00:39:12,910
project that was funded by Steven Greer

854
00:39:18,009 --> 00:39:16,579
I know SETI bit and I know Steven Greer

855
00:39:18,670 --> 00:39:18,019
but I'm not familiar with this which

856
00:39:22,539 --> 00:39:18,680
project

857
00:39:24,089 --> 00:39:22,549
Steven Greer is a UFO guys and he thinks

858
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:24,099
that those aliens

859
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:27,049
yeah um talk even things like that he

860
00:39:33,009 --> 00:39:30,650
funded a welder he funded several

861
00:39:34,779 --> 00:39:33,019
organizations but he funded one called C

862
00:39:37,690 --> 00:39:34,789
SETI the Center for the Study of

863
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:37,700
extraterrestrial intelligence in I think

864
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:39,050
it was in the nine

865
00:39:48,730 --> 00:39:46,490
tee's and he was in the UK in 2011 I

866
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:48,740
think I might be wrong about that but it

867
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:50,930
was in Malcolm and they were funding a

868
00:39:57,790 --> 00:39:52,970
new Ghana organization a sister one

869
00:40:00,400 --> 00:39:57,800
sister organization for him in the UK to

870
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:00,410
basically do the same thing as C said he

871
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:03,440
was and that is to go out meditate and

872
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:06,410
to ask what a result that to come down

873
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:10,940
and show itself and to initiate contact

874
00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:15,530
with whatever is out there and I was a

875
00:40:23,650 --> 00:40:20,540
part of that group for around seven six

876
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:23,660
seven years as a technical consultant

877
00:40:30,310 --> 00:40:28,010
with the you know photo cameras and

878
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:30,320
binoculars and night vision gear and

879
00:40:33,220 --> 00:40:31,310
recording and everything

880
00:40:35,860 --> 00:40:33,230
electromagnetic recordings and

881
00:40:38,590 --> 00:40:35,870
everything I'd wanted to do the nuts and

882
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:38,600
bolts stuff and not have so much to do

883
00:40:48,070 --> 00:40:42,880
with the spiritual aspect of it right

884
00:40:52,030 --> 00:40:48,080
but when you noticed that there wasn't

885
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:52,040
really much going on and that what they

886
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:52,730
were seeing

887
00:40:59,740 --> 00:40:55,450
you know iridium flares satellites

888
00:41:01,810 --> 00:40:59,750
started asking questions about maybe

889
00:41:07,410 --> 00:41:01,820
what you felt or thought you felt or

890
00:41:11,980 --> 00:41:07,420
what you saw maybe wasn't that and it

891
00:41:16,740 --> 00:41:11,990
created some stir inside the community

892
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:16,750
and I was eventually excluded from the

893
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:20,570
organization which was called sir Sir

894
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:24,410
per the reason was I can remember how I

895
00:41:38,350 --> 00:41:29,530
put it that my my inner energy didn't

896
00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:38,360
synchronize with the group's energy yes

897
00:41:45,370 --> 00:41:42,500
and was then excluded and it of course

898
00:41:48,030 --> 00:41:45,380
exactly how you put it you you feel

899
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:48,040
excluded from a family which is a family

900
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:52,850
where you find an openness and inclusion

901
00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:54,290
that you don't find anywhere else

902
00:41:59,590 --> 00:41:56,390
because if you talk about the stuff and

903
00:42:02,160 --> 00:41:59,600
uh in a normal society so to speak my

904
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:02,170
experience was that in school and family

905
00:42:08,980 --> 00:42:05,530
usual friends you were what's the word

906
00:42:10,690 --> 00:42:08,990
ostracized or you know pushed out there

907
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:10,700
as well just for talking about it but

908
00:42:14,650 --> 00:42:12,110
here is a group of people that are

909
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:14,660
including me the more I talk about this

910
00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:18,650
and the more I exaggerate my own stories

911
00:42:25,630 --> 00:42:22,340
to put it like that and they cherish it

912
00:42:30,660 --> 00:42:25,640
in a way and it just it's like you're

913
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:30,670
swimming in a sensation of love almost

914
00:42:35,890 --> 00:42:33,890
you're so on the same level of a belief

915
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:35,900
system and wanting to believe that and

916
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,510
it's it's hard to find that inclusion

917
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:40,880
anywhere else it also happened in a crop

918
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:44,480
circle community for example I was I was

919
00:42:50,020 --> 00:42:47,450
very well connected with the the crop

920
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:50,030
circle researchers over there like Ava

921
00:42:59,800 --> 00:42:55,010
Marie Brewster Lucy Pringle and one of

922
00:43:01,600 --> 00:42:59,810
the dr. Grey's personal friends remember

923
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:01,610
his name right now as many years ago and

924
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:05,510
as soon as I told them that I'd met with

925
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,370
one of the circle makers as soon as I

926
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:09,200
told them that they've met one of them I

927
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:15,280
was excluded and the reaction from the

928
00:43:22,930 --> 00:43:17,450
researcher Ava Marie Breck Astor was

929
00:43:25,420 --> 00:43:22,940
that of anger and frustration and I was

930
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:25,430
there with a good friend of mine when

931
00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:28,400
this happened he's a cameraman with the

932
00:43:33,820 --> 00:43:30,620
BB know with a History Channel

933
00:43:36,070 --> 00:43:33,830
previously BBC he now works for the TV

934
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,080
show ancient aliens he started observing

935
00:43:41,170 --> 00:43:38,720
the same thing as me that the the more

936
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:41,180
you ask questions about whatever these

937
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:43,490
communities believe they will exclude

938
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:46,370
you so it's this almost like a double

939
00:43:52,060 --> 00:43:49,250
morale in in all communities like this

940
00:43:54,670 --> 00:43:52,070
because they they claim to be excluded

941
00:43:56,410 --> 00:43:54,680
themselves from the beginning by normal

942
00:43:59,680 --> 00:43:56,420
people and then they get into this

943
00:44:01,720 --> 00:43:59,690
community but as soon as you become one

944
00:44:03,580 --> 00:44:01,730
of these normal people again or maybe

945
00:44:05,850 --> 00:44:03,590
not normal but just start asking

946
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:05,860
fundamental questions

947
00:44:10,190 --> 00:44:08,410
one's excluding you so they're doing

948
00:44:13,290 --> 00:44:10,200
exactly the same that they've

949
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:13,300
experienced themselves and this is when

950
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:15,370
this is what I saw like when you were

951
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:18,400
into these common sections that it is

952
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:21,850
type of exclusion and it's to me that

953
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:24,640
was personally painful in a way to watch

954
00:44:29,550 --> 00:44:27,370
at that time because it it just makes

955
00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:29,560
you angry as to how people can

956
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:31,180
communicate each other in that in that

957
00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:33,910
way but yeah that happened in the crop

958
00:44:43,170 --> 00:44:36,780
circle community and now

959
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:43,180
yes it happened there as well I've been

960
00:44:50,730 --> 00:44:48,370
connected with an artist artistic

961
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:50,740
community here in Norway that do art

962
00:44:57,570 --> 00:44:54,250
pieces and they're really good at it and

963
00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:57,580
it's an amazing group of people but as

964
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:00,550
soon as you start doubting or asking

965
00:45:05,070 --> 00:45:02,950
questions about 9/11 that maybe it

966
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:05,080
wasn't that bad and maybe it wasn't

967
00:45:09,570 --> 00:45:07,420
maybe it wasn't explosives maybe it was

968
00:45:12,570 --> 00:45:09,580
this instead or if it was other people

969
00:45:15,150 --> 00:45:12,580
behind it but they didn't use explosives

970
00:45:20,690 --> 00:45:15,160
but as soon as you start approaching

971
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:20,700
that you kind of get the same sensation

972
00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:23,170
that they get a view that you're a shill

973
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:28,270
or that you're then put you know that

974
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:29,710
you've gotten disinformation or

975
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:32,650
something and so I think you're right

976
00:45:40,310 --> 00:45:35,920
yes there is a type of exclusion here

977
00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:40,320
but it that their family inclusion it

978
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:43,030
there's there's nothing quite like it

979
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:47,380
because it's so so powerful and I I

980
00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:49,510
don't know what I don't know what it's

981
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:51,070
like in the skeptics community if you

982
00:45:55,020 --> 00:45:53,410
guys get the same sensations of being

983
00:45:59,520 --> 00:45:55,030
skeptics dead I think it's quite the

984
00:46:01,230 --> 00:45:59,530
same okay no there's a degree of

985
00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:01,240
community I think in any like group of

986
00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:03,340
people with similar interest but I don't

987
00:46:07,890 --> 00:46:05,350
think we have exactly the same you know

988
00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:07,900
yeah the conspiracy theorists think

989
00:46:13,140 --> 00:46:10,120
they're changing the world like in a

990
00:46:14,490 --> 00:46:13,150
revolutionary manner where as skeptics

991
00:46:16,830 --> 00:46:14,500
are just kind of improving the world a

992
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:16,840
little bit at a time so it's I don't

993
00:46:19,710 --> 00:46:18,490
think you get the same same type of

994
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:19,720
thing but

995
00:46:25,810 --> 00:46:22,880
it was fascinating like hearing you

996
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:25,820
talking about being excluded there

997
00:46:33,730 --> 00:46:28,310
because I don't know have you read my

998
00:46:35,290 --> 00:46:33,740
book escaping the rabbit hole first

999
00:46:36,940 --> 00:46:35,300
Chapman of the first chapter the first

1000
00:46:40,270 --> 00:46:36,950
interview I do in the book is with a guy

1001
00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:40,280
called Steve and his story there is

1002
00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:43,180
around 9/11 but it really seemed

1003
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:45,980
parallel what you were saying in I think

1004
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,480
it was the the crop circle thing only

1005
00:46:54,580 --> 00:46:52,640
with you have everything but you know

1006
00:46:56,830 --> 00:46:54,590
basically he had this real sense of

1007
00:46:58,900 --> 00:46:56,840
family and even said there was lots of

1008
00:47:01,000 --> 00:46:58,910
beautiful women in the group so that was

1009
00:47:03,370 --> 00:47:01,010
a good as a positive thing as well

1010
00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:03,380
so it was like a dating opportunity as

1011
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:06,470
well but and he had a great time and he

1012
00:47:12,940 --> 00:47:10,640
was in tomatoes and he would get up in

1013
00:47:14,530 --> 00:47:12,950
these 911 meetings and he would give

1014
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:14,540
stirring speeches and everyone would

1015
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:16,730
applaud him and he felt like he was some

1016
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:18,770
kind of hero and he really really

1017
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:23,450
enjoyed it and it took him asking

1018
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:26,930
questions furthest any of the spell to

1019
00:47:30,220 --> 00:47:28,970
break and it kind of happened when the

1020
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:30,230
group started getting interested in

1021
00:47:34,090 --> 00:47:32,630
chemtrails and he that was just a step

1022
00:47:35,710 --> 00:47:34,100
too far for him he looked into

1023
00:47:38,740 --> 00:47:35,720
chemtrails and discovered that they were

1024
00:47:40,810 --> 00:47:38,750
just you know contrails one brought it

1025
00:47:42,370 --> 00:47:40,820
up and then they told him you know

1026
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:42,380
basically what they told you that his

1027
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:44,960
his energy didn't mesh with the energy

1028
00:47:50,980 --> 00:47:47,750
of the group and so he would have to

1029
00:47:52,450 --> 00:47:50,990
move on and so he lost his family which

1030
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:52,460
I think was actually actually kind of

1031
00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:55,610
hard for him he has he he went back to

1032
00:48:00,940 --> 00:47:59,570
those groups more as a deep bunker but I

1033
00:48:03,010 --> 00:48:00,950
think in your heart it might have been

1034
00:48:04,620 --> 00:48:03,020
you know because that was his family and

1035
00:48:07,660 --> 00:48:04,630
he wanted to talk to them still he's

1036
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:07,670
still actually friends with them so he

1037
00:48:11,380 --> 00:48:09,680
has very interesting parallels there I

1038
00:48:15,550 --> 00:48:11,390
should send you a copy of my book so you

1039
00:48:17,460 --> 00:48:15,560
can say yes at this point in the

1040
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:17,470
discussion we started talking about

1041
00:48:22,570 --> 00:48:20,150
various aspects of 9/11 including a

1042
00:48:24,610 --> 00:48:22,580
bunch of fairly technical aspects so

1043
00:48:27,580 --> 00:48:24,620
I've kind of cut that chunk out it's

1044
00:48:28,890 --> 00:48:27,590
about an hour long and I'm just giving

1045
00:48:31,890 --> 00:48:28,900
the end of our discussion

1046
00:48:35,099 --> 00:48:31,900
here now the junk that I cut out will be

1047
00:48:37,140 --> 00:48:35,109
available in another episode so the

1048
00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:37,150
argument that you bring in forward are

1049
00:48:45,809 --> 00:48:43,420
very easily understandable but I think

1050
00:48:49,529 --> 00:48:45,819
some of them are also alternative

1051
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:49,539
explanations yes and not exactly a

1052
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:52,720
debunk I agree so does I agree and this

1053
00:48:57,650 --> 00:48:55,210
is something that I would actually

1054
00:49:00,779 --> 00:48:57,660
encourage that interpretation of it but

1055
00:49:04,259 --> 00:49:00,789
the point is there is an alternative

1056
00:49:06,210 --> 00:49:04,269
explanation the point here is that there

1057
00:49:08,940 --> 00:49:06,220
isn't just one possible source of

1058
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:08,950
whatever of one possible reason for

1059
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:11,650
these things there are other possible

1060
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:14,470
reasons people say things like the

1061
00:49:18,509 --> 00:49:16,240
presence of iron microspheres can only

1062
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:18,519
be explained by thermite which isn't

1063
00:49:24,089 --> 00:49:21,249
true or they will say you know what the

1064
00:49:27,359 --> 00:49:24,099
firefighters saw can only be explained

1065
00:49:28,799 --> 00:49:27,369
by thermite which also is true because

1066
00:49:30,660 --> 00:49:28,809
what they might have seen something that

1067
00:49:32,370 --> 00:49:30,670
wasn't molten steel you could say like

1068
00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:32,380
this meteorite can only have formed from

1069
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:34,089
one thing but there are alternative

1070
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:35,710
explanation it's just you know crushed

1071
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:38,049
so I give a narrative and I don't prove

1072
00:49:42,660 --> 00:49:40,480
it but I present it as a possible

1073
00:49:45,479 --> 00:49:42,670
alternative explanation which you I

1074
00:49:47,009 --> 00:49:45,489
think you know you can consider it and I

1075
00:49:48,599 --> 00:49:47,019
give one you know I'll give you the

1076
00:49:50,849 --> 00:49:48,609
supporting evidence that I have like the

1077
00:49:54,180 --> 00:49:50,859
meteorite has unmelted steel in it and

1078
00:49:56,220 --> 00:49:54,190
it has bits of paper in it and also

1079
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:56,230
concrete doesn't actually melt really it

1080
00:50:01,769 --> 00:49:58,210
kind of lace this integrates into its

1081
00:50:05,249 --> 00:50:01,779
components the language that's being

1082
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:05,259
used in this in this manner of debunking

1083
00:50:10,259 --> 00:50:07,930
so to speak like in your lecture you

1084
00:50:13,019 --> 00:50:10,269
said a couple of times just debunked

1085
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:13,029
that whatever this is it's debunked and

1086
00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:16,079
maybe the language is a little bit too

1087
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:22,029
monotone or just too - yeah you know

1088
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:23,680
what I mean that it's I agree with you I

1089
00:50:28,859 --> 00:50:25,210
agree with you and that's actually

1090
00:50:31,470 --> 00:50:28,869
something I've tried to rectify to a

1091
00:50:33,269 --> 00:50:31,480
degree in some of the shorter videos

1092
00:50:36,809 --> 00:50:33,279
I've been doing recently which I did

1093
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:36,819
after after that presentation like I

1094
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:39,880
will say at the end of a video that this

1095
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:42,249
doesn't prove that this is but it's

1096
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:42,720
something

1097
00:50:48,099 --> 00:50:45,570
to consider and I think now I really

1098
00:50:50,450 --> 00:50:48,109
should almost like start out saying that

1099
00:50:52,490 --> 00:50:50,460
you know what I'm about to show you does

1100
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:52,500
not disprove the theory of controlled

1101
00:50:55,820 --> 00:50:55,290
demolition but it's something to

1102
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:55,830
consider

1103
00:51:01,930 --> 00:50:58,800
especially if you think that this aspect

1104
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:01,940
is evidence for controlled demolition

1105
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:06,290
because people get very defensive when

1106
00:51:11,710 --> 00:51:09,270
they think that you are trying to remove

1107
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:11,720
the underpinnings of their world and

1108
00:51:17,330 --> 00:51:14,910
they they view something like me

1109
00:51:19,070 --> 00:51:17,340
debunking iron microspheres as me

1110
00:51:22,190 --> 00:51:19,080
attempting to disprove that 9/11 was

1111
00:51:24,830 --> 00:51:22,200
controlled demolition and so they fight

1112
00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:24,840
against it with not not just simply with

1113
00:51:29,420 --> 00:51:27,390
the to preserve their belief in iron

1114
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:29,430
microspheres but to preserve their

1115
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:32,520
belief in the entire 9/11 thing so I

1116
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:33,960
really am trying to separate that out

1117
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:36,300
and say all I'm doing is saying that

1118
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:37,770
there are other reasons for iron

1119
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:40,380
microspheres one of which is thermite

1120
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:41,880
actually make iron microspheres with

1121
00:51:46,580 --> 00:51:44,730
thermite and the in the talked idea

1122
00:51:49,820 --> 00:51:46,590
although I do is also find these little

1123
00:51:53,930 --> 00:51:49,830
white eyeball microspheres which yeah

1124
00:51:56,270 --> 00:51:53,940
but cause it runs yeah but there are

1125
00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:56,280
people but well in the debunking

1126
00:52:01,730 --> 00:51:58,380
community or for example on meta bunk

1127
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:01,740
and people into the skeptic community

1128
00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:06,450
that seem to take a that they feel

1129
00:52:12,589 --> 00:52:08,220
they're part of a team and that team is

1130
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:12,599
debunking and that team is to show and

1131
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:15,930
almost like it's it's a fight to prove

1132
00:52:20,060 --> 00:52:18,150
people that you've been debunked they

1133
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:20,070
put it in the end you it's the bunk'd

1134
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:21,930
it's like this it's a way of

1135
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:26,450
communicating that almost like a

1136
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:30,720
self-loathing you get get a sensation of

1137
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:32,880
people almost getting high of themselves

1138
00:52:38,570 --> 00:52:35,490
for being appearing to be more

1139
00:52:41,210 --> 00:52:38,580
intelligent or reflected than someone

1140
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:41,220
else and that completely ruins the whole

1141
00:52:48,170 --> 00:52:43,290
argument that they came with to begin

1142
00:52:51,290 --> 00:52:48,180
with and I see this very visibly in the

1143
00:52:53,870 --> 00:52:51,300
in the skeptics community that they

1144
00:52:56,270 --> 00:52:53,880
they're riding a high horse many of them

1145
00:52:58,250 --> 00:52:56,280
and even if there are arguments

1146
00:52:59,630 --> 00:52:58,260
sound it doesn't really matter because

1147
00:53:02,270 --> 00:52:59,640
the way in which they're communicating

1148
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:02,280
it is basically just ruining yeah no

1149
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:05,460
it's the problem and you know in my book

1150
00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:08,370
which I'll send you a copy I talked

1151
00:53:13,340 --> 00:53:10,440
about how the first thing you got to do

1152
00:53:15,230 --> 00:53:13,350
is establish effective communication and

1153
00:53:17,060 --> 00:53:15,240
if you're not communicating effectively

1154
00:53:19,090 --> 00:53:17,070
with somebody it's gonna pointless I

1155
00:53:21,650 --> 00:53:19,100
think there's a lot of bad debunking

1156
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:21,660
being done by the skeptics community in

1157
00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:24,240
two ways one is kind of like the rush to

1158
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:26,550
judgment where people will just you know

1159
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:28,290
make up the first explanation that comes

1160
00:53:31,220 --> 00:53:30,000
into their head for things and then tell

1161
00:53:34,010 --> 00:53:31,230
you oh well that's obviously just

1162
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:34,020
collapsed because of the fires and you

1163
00:53:38,210 --> 00:53:36,650
know one law bla they'll make up some

1164
00:53:39,950 --> 00:53:38,220
explanation without really understanding

1165
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:39,960
nuances and so it doesn't really come

1166
00:53:44,660 --> 00:53:42,330
across very well and the other bad

1167
00:53:48,590 --> 00:53:44,670
debunking is being just like you say

1168
00:53:51,740 --> 00:53:48,600
being very dismissive and you know not

1169
00:53:53,390 --> 00:53:51,750
really not really taking the time to

1170
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:53,400
understand what the other person is

1171
00:54:00,350 --> 00:53:56,250
talking about just kind of religion to

1172
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:00,360
judgment without really knowing the

1173
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:01,710
topics and a lot of the times that

1174
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:04,400
backfires especially in a more mature

1175
00:54:11,470 --> 00:54:08,250
Theory like 9/11 when a lot of the

1176
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:11,480
proponents like yourself to a degree

1177
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:13,410
you've been involved in it for a long

1178
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:15,690
time and you know a lot of the the

1179
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:17,490
arguments and you might know more about

1180
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:20,370
it than the D bunker and then bunker

1181
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:23,040
comes in and you know you say something

1182
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:24,930
and then they just say whether it comes

1183
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:26,730
in to the top of their head they don't

1184
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:28,770
take the time to listen to you and find

1185
00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:31,140
out what the context is of what you're

1186
00:54:37,250 --> 00:54:33,660
saying or why you believe what you

1187
00:54:39,380 --> 00:54:37,260
believe and so they end up like not

1188
00:54:42,110 --> 00:54:39,390
debunking things because they will just

1189
00:54:43,550 --> 00:54:42,120
offer very very slight objections that

1190
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:43,560
don't really make sense because they

1191
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:46,050
don't really understand the context yeah

1192
00:54:50,450 --> 00:54:47,280
there's a problem I wish people wouldn't

1193
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:50,460
wouldn't wade into debunking things

1194
00:54:56,420 --> 00:54:52,610
before they understood things like a

1195
00:54:58,880 --> 00:54:56,430
silly example but flat earth there's a

1196
00:55:01,760 --> 00:54:58,890
famous experiment in flat earth where

1197
00:55:04,340 --> 00:55:01,770
you you measure the length to the shadow

1198
00:55:07,260 --> 00:55:04,350
a one spot and then the length of a

1199
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:07,270
shadow at the other spot and

1200
00:55:13,330 --> 00:55:09,440
everyone says like all this proves that

1201
00:55:15,580 --> 00:55:13,340
the earth is round it doesn't though it

1202
00:55:17,110 --> 00:55:15,590
just proves that you know that the Sun

1203
00:55:18,430 --> 00:55:17,120
has a different angle between this just

1204
00:55:21,940 --> 00:55:18,440
sticks it could mean that the Sun is

1205
00:55:23,020 --> 00:55:21,950
very low so because this experiment

1206
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:23,030
doesn't prove it

1207
00:55:29,110 --> 00:55:26,090
and yet it's in popular culture it's a

1208
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:29,120
way of proving the earth is round then

1209
00:55:35,770 --> 00:55:33,170
when someone is a bad debunker they will

1210
00:55:39,370 --> 00:55:35,780
often go for this this this this this

1211
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:39,380
weak argument and give it to a flat

1212
00:55:42,220 --> 00:55:40,730
earth believer and then they'll just

1213
00:55:43,510 --> 00:55:42,230
roll their eyes and then it's kind of

1214
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:43,520
hard to have a discussion with that

1215
00:55:48,190 --> 00:55:46,250
because in now you've got to explain to

1216
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:48,200
the debunker about all the the math of

1217
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:49,610
involved with the angles and everything

1218
00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:51,370
and you're not going to get anywhere so

1219
00:55:58,270 --> 00:55:53,920
thank you time if you're a deep bunker

1220
00:56:01,930 --> 00:55:58,280
yeah yeah absolutely one last question

1221
00:56:05,140 --> 00:56:01,940
that the what what do you think has been

1222
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:05,150
the biggest learning experience for you

1223
00:56:11,530 --> 00:56:08,480
doing all of this work what has made the

1224
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:11,540
highest impression that's a good

1225
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:19,120
okay related to what we're talking about

1226
00:56:24,370 --> 00:56:22,010
there and that you can't just explain

1227
00:56:28,740 --> 00:56:24,380
something to someone and then expect

1228
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:28,750
them to change their mind no matter how

1229
00:56:35,650 --> 00:56:32,450
how valid your explanation is there's

1230
00:56:39,010 --> 00:56:35,660
more to it than simply debunking as in

1231
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:39,020
giving the correct explanation it has to

1232
00:56:45,250 --> 00:56:43,130
fit into a broader understanding of what

1233
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:45,260
the other person is about you know watch

1234
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:49,490
their their entire worldview is and you

1235
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:50,890
have to make sure that you are

1236
00:56:54,940 --> 00:56:53,090
communicating effectively and that they

1237
00:56:57,070 --> 00:56:54,950
understand what you are doing as well as

1238
00:56:58,510 --> 00:56:57,080
you understand what what they are doing

1239
00:57:00,910 --> 00:56:58,520
what they are saying what their thought

1240
00:57:02,580 --> 00:57:00,920
process is so you haven't you have to

1241
00:57:06,610 --> 00:57:02,590
take the time to actually establish

1242
00:57:09,550 --> 00:57:06,620
communication before or during the

1243
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:09,560
actual debunking I think before I was

1244
00:57:15,490 --> 00:57:13,130
very focused on figuring out what was

1245
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:15,500
wrong and then writing an explanation of

1246
00:57:20,930 --> 00:57:18,770
why it is wrong mmm but that doesn't

1247
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:20,940
really work because I did that if a Kemp

1248
00:57:27,020 --> 00:57:24,690
by starting in 2006 and I've written all

1249
00:57:29,660 --> 00:57:27,030
these explanations of why contrails

1250
00:57:31,339 --> 00:57:29,670
can't persist and yet we still have all

1251
00:57:33,380 --> 00:57:31,349
these people on the internet saying oh

1252
00:57:36,079 --> 00:57:33,390
you know if it's a long con trail it

1253
00:57:38,660 --> 00:57:36,089
must be a chem trail so just having the

1254
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:38,670
explanations doesn't doesn't work you

1255
00:57:42,380 --> 00:57:40,530
can't just you know explain things to

1256
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:42,390
people he even if you do it online in

1257
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:44,250
you know in the chapter on something you

1258
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:45,330
say here's the explanation they're

1259
00:57:47,690 --> 00:57:46,770
either they don't read it or they look

1260
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:47,700
at it and they think it's this

1261
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:50,010
information or they just it goes in one

1262
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:50,910
ear and out the other

1263
00:57:55,730 --> 00:57:53,700
so yeah I've really changed in the way

1264
00:57:58,579 --> 00:57:55,740
that now I focus more on communication

1265
00:57:59,780 --> 00:57:58,589
and like outreach like trying to talk to

1266
00:58:02,089 --> 00:57:59,790
people and this is partly why I'm doing

1267
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:02,099
this podcast I want to talk to people

1268
00:58:09,500 --> 00:58:07,650
who on all sides of the spectrum say

1269
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:09,510
you're slightly on the conspiracy side

1270
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:14,640
of the spectrum which is great so I

1271
00:58:20,210 --> 00:58:16,550
actually thought you would be a bit more

1272
00:58:22,250 --> 00:58:20,220
conspiratorial based on some of perhaps

1273
00:58:25,390 --> 00:58:22,260
I was I was looking at our older

1274
00:58:28,030 --> 00:58:25,400
interactions and not both yeah you are

1275
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:28,040
so two years ago you're a bit more of a

1276
00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:30,510
9/11 truther me I mean I think you know

1277
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:31,830
you obviously you're still very

1278
00:58:34,430 --> 00:58:33,359
interested in figuring out exactly what

1279
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:34,440
happened and you still have a lot of

1280
00:58:40,839 --> 00:58:37,920
suspicions so you know you're you're a

1281
00:58:45,980 --> 00:58:40,849
good person to talk to because I think

1282
00:58:47,660 --> 00:58:45,990
seeing your journey in and out of the

1283
00:58:50,089 --> 00:58:47,670
rabbit hole I think is a good

1284
00:58:53,390 --> 00:58:50,099
illustration of you know what can happen

1285
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:53,400
and yeah it's not all bad no it's not

1286
00:58:58,190 --> 00:58:56,130
yeah thank you reading yeah if you're

1287
00:59:00,200 --> 00:58:58,200
coming closer to the truth and you

1288
00:59:02,540 --> 00:59:00,210
actually recognize that then I think

1289
00:59:06,349 --> 00:59:02,550
it's a good thing you might have lost

1290
00:59:12,349 --> 00:59:06,359
your crop circle family I'm sure you

1291
00:59:15,290 --> 00:59:12,359
still have friends we're gonna try to

1292
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:15,300
make another one but yet in seeing

1293
00:59:20,570 --> 00:59:17,810
yourself from the emotional aspect of

1294
00:59:23,839 --> 00:59:20,580
believing in those theories is is very

1295
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:23,849
liberating it does help you see things

1296
00:59:26,780 --> 00:59:24,660
more clearly

1297
00:59:30,530 --> 00:59:26,790
definitely yeah and I have heard that

1298
00:59:31,940 --> 00:59:30,540
quite a lot people it's like the scales

1299
00:59:33,980 --> 00:59:31,950
have being lifted from their eyes or

1300
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:33,990
whatever they they see things

1301
00:59:41,780 --> 00:59:37,050
more clearly I think for a lot of people

1302
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:41,790
they labor under they kind of know that

1303
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:43,980
it isn't real for a while where they

1304
00:59:47,930 --> 00:59:45,510
stay in it and then they're kind of

1305
00:59:49,730 --> 00:59:47,940
becomes a tipping point and so it can be

1306
00:59:51,950 --> 00:59:49,740
even though it takes a long time to get

1307
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:51,960
to that point when it does fall away it

1308
00:59:56,750 --> 00:59:54,690
can fall away fairly rapidly like that

1309
00:59:58,910 --> 00:59:56,760
the false aspects of you'll believe I

1310
01:00:02,690 --> 00:59:58,920
think you probably had suspicions and

1311
01:00:04,490 --> 01:00:02,700
questions about various aspects of these

1312
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:04,500
various things like all the things that

1313
01:00:10,130 --> 01:00:07,280
you've been through like the the the UFO

1314
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:10,140
people who made UFO appears the crop

1315
01:00:15,470 --> 01:00:12,410
circles and then some aspects of 9/11

1316
01:00:16,850 --> 01:00:15,480
and you have questions about it but you

1317
01:00:18,650 --> 01:00:16,860
still stick with it because that's you

1318
01:00:20,060 --> 01:00:18,660
know what you believe but then the

1319
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:20,070
weight of the evidence at some point

1320
01:00:25,460 --> 01:00:23,250
makes whatever that aspect is fall away

1321
01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:25,470
I've heard that being described as being

1322
01:00:29,690 --> 01:00:28,230
in liberating but also probably

1323
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:29,700
sometimes a bit distressing with it

1324
01:00:37,700 --> 01:00:34,020
there's a shift in your worldview yeah

1325
01:00:41,170 --> 01:00:37,710
yeah definitely is it's so I can imagine

1326
01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:41,180
that you're you on a journey to find the

1327
01:00:47,570 --> 01:00:44,940
holy grail of trying to communicate to

1328
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:47,580
two different communities and in the

1329
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:49,770
best way possible yeah I don't think

1330
01:00:56,540 --> 01:00:51,890
there's a Holy Grail though I don't like

1331
01:00:59,930 --> 01:00:56,550
no silver bullets I think it's very much

1332
01:01:01,460 --> 01:00:59,940
tailored to the individual by what works

1333
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:01,470
for one person isn't gonna work for

1334
01:01:07,010 --> 01:01:02,880
another there are certain things I think

1335
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:07,020
that just that do work well like finding

1336
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:09,810
common ground finding things that you

1337
01:01:14,900 --> 01:01:12,480
actually agree on I again I will often

1338
01:01:16,849 --> 01:01:14,910
ask somebody like you don't think the

1339
01:01:18,380 --> 01:01:16,859
earth is flat or you don't think the

1340
01:01:20,359 --> 01:01:18,390
chemtrails are real even though you know

1341
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:20,369
maybe they do so we find you know where

1342
01:01:24,770 --> 01:01:22,650
is the dividing line between what we

1343
01:01:28,190 --> 01:01:24,780
agree on like we would agree for example

1344
01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:28,200
that Queen Elizabeth is not a child

1345
01:01:34,010 --> 01:01:31,800
eating reptile you know some people do

1346
01:01:35,930 --> 01:01:34,020
think that and then you go down the line

1347
01:01:37,820 --> 01:01:35,940
and you say what don't we agree on and

1348
01:01:39,740 --> 01:01:37,830
why why are we disagreeing why do we

1349
01:01:41,330 --> 01:01:39,750
agree on something that's you know just

1350
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,340
this further along a spectrum but we

1351
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:43,680
don't agree with this thing you know why

1352
01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:46,650
would why would why do we agree that no

1353
01:01:49,180 --> 01:01:47,760
plane or

1354
01:01:52,010 --> 01:01:49,190
why do we agree a plane hit the Pentagon

1355
01:01:53,890 --> 01:01:52,020
but we don't agree that on the

1356
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:53,900
controlled demolition why is one thing

1357
01:02:00,860 --> 01:01:56,850
implausible and/or implausible so I like

1358
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:00,870
to look at that that yeah I mean yeah

1359
01:02:04,700 --> 01:02:02,400
well this has been a very interesting

1360
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:04,710
discussion two and a quarter hours

1361
01:02:09,380 --> 01:02:08,160
so really go hey yes it's been very good

1362
01:02:10,030 --> 01:02:09,390
I think I might have to split them into

1363
01:02:13,010 --> 01:02:10,040
two pieces

1364
01:02:17,030 --> 01:02:13,020
all right you so you get two episodes

1365
01:02:21,250 --> 01:02:17,040
part 1 and part 2 Austin and so I thank

1366
01:02:28,370 --> 01:02:23,540
maybe we'll have you on again when

1367
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:28,380
you've proceeded further oh I think I'd

1368
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:30,210
like to talk to you again after after

1369
01:02:34,250 --> 01:02:31,410
the report comes out the whole see

1370
01:02:35,930 --> 01:02:34,260
report from from Alaska that'll be very

1371
01:02:41,540 --> 01:02:35,940
interesting cuz I think your take on

1372
01:02:43,580 --> 01:02:41,550
that it's been very interesting and well

1373
01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:43,590
thank you very much I'm glad you stopped

1374
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:45,960
recording now you could listen to

1375
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:47,850
episode three of tales from the rabbit

1376
01:02:51,500 --> 01:02:50,010
hole the extra material I cut out is

1377
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:51,510
going to be available as episode four

1378
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:54,090
and coming up next week in episode five

1379
01:02:58,460 --> 01:02:56,490
we're going to talk to Dan a former

1380
01:03:00,140 --> 01:02:58,470
apocalyptic prepper who now is no longer

1381
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:00,150
an apocalyptic prepper

1382
01:03:03,910 --> 01:03:02,400
this is Mick West with tales from the

1383
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:03,920
rabbit hole

1384
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:06,810
[Music]